Curse

DreamWind · Feb 28, 2010, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

Anet realized some time ago that NOTHING will satisfy the PvP community. So they gave up...

A solid balanced PvP game will satisfy the PvP community. Conviently that is mostly what we had in late Prophecies and mid Factions. There were relatively few complaints back then (especially compared to post Nightfall). But yes, you are correct that Anet gave up on their solid PvP game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

Now the PvP community is starting their foray in PvE and trying to ruin that as well. I hope they eventually stop changing everything. It sucks having to by new armor/runes/insignias/weapons etc every time they do an update.

The PvP community has mostly left. Any garbage that is currently happening in the game is the result of Anet and the remaining PvE player input.

Alleji · Feb 28, 2010, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Has Guild Wars focus shifted from PvP to PvE?

Welcome to Nightfail release!

Deakon · Mar 01, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

I can only comment on my own observations and experiences... I bought GW for the PvE. (Important to note... I didn't get GW until it had been out for almost 2 years.) Joined a PvE (mainly) guild and was having a blast. I love doing JQ and enjoy a little AB once in a while. I don't really consider it hardcore PvP but it's fun to me. I maxed Kurz almost exclusively by doing JQ. Just got r10 Lux the same way (thank you Anet for double Faction!) I hate RA because it's TOO random. Done some HA but unless you're already ranked and running an imba build, expect nothing but frustration. The learning curve is so steep and the competition already so fierce, it wasn't enjoyable.

The main difference I see between PvP and PvE is in PvP you've got no choices. You run certain builds, using certain equipment and play with certain people or you lose. In PvE you are (were) allowed to experiment with your options. I have a job, a wife, 2 teenage children and a house. I don't have 8 hours to play games everyday. It was FUN to load a 600 build on my monk and take Gwen to CoF and break some lockpicks. I wasn't getting rich by any means and I could still join a balanced group and do the same dungeon in about the same amount of time. i.e. (For me) PvE = virtually unlimited options = Fun. PvP = limited options = Not fun.

I personally don't care if someone can run UW in 15 minutes. So what if someone has 10 stacks of ecto? Taking it away from them doesn't make my characters any wealthier. I couldn't care less. I still have the option of either learning to do it myself, paying someone to do it for me or joining a balanced team and risk wasting hours of my time just for enjoyment. (I've never been on an UW speed run but many many balanced clears.)

"Balancing" PvE makes absolutely no sense to me because you have options. If you prefer balanced (the way the game is meant to be played) then go for it. If you want speed, I think you should have the option. Will people abuse the system? Of course... nothing is going to stop that short of shutting the whole thing down.

Maintaining balance in PvP makes perfect sense. It's competition. No team should have the "home-court advantage." Keep it fair. But balance in PvE is silly. Who cares if you have an unfair advantage against a bunch of dumb AI driven bad guys? They're not gonna complain. The only people who complain about balance in PvE are those who are worried that someone else is getting rich. Nobody is buying the "spirit of the game" excuse.

Anet should be more concerned with doing away with the exclusivity inherent in PvP than balancing PvE.

IlikeGW · Mar 01, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

GW1 PVP sucked since day 1. Maybe you're just realizing by now that having a million ways to make an imbalanced team, with it taking the developers months to years to respond, isn't a great competitive game.

Foppe · Mar 01, 2010, 04:16 PM // 16:16

haha i only just recently started playing again since about over a year. it's sad to find out the team arenas were erased - spent most my time in those

Still Number One · Mar 01, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

GW1 PVP sucked since day 1.

That is really just a matter of opinion. GW PvP used to be extremely fun, and still was even after Nightfall release. It wasn't as fun as it was before, but it was still fun.

GW PvP is a lot of fun for those who like games where you must work as a team to overcome obstacles as a unit rather than just have 8 guys run around and do things on their own and hope everyone else isn't stupid. There really isn't another game on the market that matches the game style of a GvG.

The problem is just simply that, too many overpowered skills got introduced to the game by the new campaigns and the EOTN expansion and made the game less enjoyable overall. Couple that with the fact that everyone had already been playing for at least 3 years and you get a lot of people saying to themselves, "instead of just dealing with this change, I think I should spend my time elsewhere."

A.net has proved over the years they care more about randomly mixing up the meta, than trying to balance it to a state similar to that of prophecies (which is what I think the majority would like to see). Couple that with the lack of attention due to GW2 and the people that did stick around hoping for a change have now left.

That only leaves us with the people who decided to stick it out despite all those changes because they still view Guild Wars as the best use of their time, and those who are new and don't know any better than what they currently have. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave us with a very large number of players.

Meridon · Mar 01, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

I'm not sure on how big the PvP community is in comparison to the PvE community, but I'm going to assume here, that Anet has always given equal attention to both sides when you look at their size. As far as I can see, it's pretty much equal.

The problem is, the total amount of attention is going down (Anet's focusing on GW2). As a result, both sides have to deal with less updates. PvE can survive with infrequent updates, but PvP is a different ball game. The current amount of attention PvP is getting in terms of skill updates and content updates isn't enough to keep it alive. The result is that it seems that Anet is neglecting PvP over PvE, while in fact they aren't.

shinta_himura · Mar 01, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Simplified for the Less Sophisticated

I'm really glad you're all mad and stuff. We don't need dicks like you hanging around. You're completely wrong trying to fit your assumptions around pve players. I happen to prefer PvE over PvP just because I never managed to get into it, I never had a decent guild or team and I really dislike programs like Teamspeak or vent. However I'm as discontentful as anyone else about the micro-transactions and grinding and whatever. The chasm between the two communities is more than half of the problem. Anyway please keep your "sophisticated" opinions to yourself.

Fey · Mar 01, 2010, 07:18 PM // 19:18

PvP focus shifted for me when the Tombs outpost on the 'pve map' got changed into an instanced pve grind...and HA was created on the substantially less significant 'Battle isles'

enter_the_zone · Mar 01, 2010, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Not all of us PvEers play to farm and work on titles. Some of us just enjoy playing around and doing vanquishes with guildies.

Yeah, I used to be like that... 3500ish game hours ago.

Which brings me to an interesting question...

How many hours have the most vocally negative of us logged? Because I'm beginning to suspect there is a link between the number of hours played and the vitriolic hatred for ANet.. Also, we're the ones who vaguely remember each and every nerf, whereas newer players have no idea that things like rolling for chests or HFFF ever existed and so aren't embittered by Anet seemingly constantly nerfing anything which was fun and accessible to all professions.

To answer my own question, about 5500 hours over 52 months.

The-Bigz · Mar 01, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

I can only comment on my own observations and experiences... I bought GW for the PvE. (Important to note... I didn't get GW until it had been out for almost 2 years.) Joined a PvE (mainly) guild and was having a blast. I love doing JQ and enjoy a little AB once in a while. I don't really consider it hardcore PvP but it's fun to me. I maxed Kurz almost exclusively by doing JQ. Just got r10 Lux the same way (thank you Anet for double Faction!) I hate RA because it's TOO random. Done some HA but unless you're already ranked and running an imba build, expect nothing but frustration. The learning curve is so steep and the competition already so fierce, it wasn't enjoyable.

The main difference I see between PvP and PvE is in PvP you've got no choices. You run certain builds, using certain equipment and play with certain people or you lose. In PvE you are (were) allowed to experiment with your options. I have a job, a wife, 2 teenage children and a house. I don't have 8 hours to play games everyday. It was FUN to load a 600 build on my monk and take Gwen to CoF and break some lockpicks. I wasn't getting rich by any means and I could still join a balanced group and do the same dungeon in about the same amount of time. i.e. (For me) PvE = virtually unlimited options = Fun. PvP = limited options = Not fun.

I personally don't care if someone can run UW in 15 minutes. So what if someone has 10 stacks of ecto? Taking it away from them doesn't make my characters any wealthier. I couldn't care less. I still have the option of either learning to do it myself, paying someone to do it for me or joining a balanced team and risk wasting hours of my time just for enjoyment. (I've never been on an UW speed run but many many balanced clears.)

"Balancing" PvE makes absolutely no sense to me because you have options. If you prefer balanced (the way the game is meant to be played) then go for it. If you want speed, I think you should have the option. Will people abuse the system? Of course... nothing is going to stop that short of shutting the whole thing down.

Maintaining balance in PvP makes perfect sense. It's competition. No team should have the "home-court advantage." Keep it fair. But balance in PvE is silly. Who cares if you have an unfair advantage against a bunch of dumb AI driven bad guys? They're not gonna complain. The only people who complain about balance in PvE are those who are worried that someone else is getting rich. Nobody is buying the "spirit of the game" excuse.

Anet should be more concerned with doing away with the exclusivity inherent in PvP than balancing PvE.

This guy wins, hands down. I agree with him. Thats why I made this thread. Has PvE been changed to a main focus and why, and this guy answered what I asked. Kudos on a well thought out response from a casual player that watched how the game progressed.

Test Me · Mar 01, 2010, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

"Balancing" PvE makes absolutely no sense to me because you have options. If you prefer balanced (the way the game is meant to be played) then go for it. If you want speed, I think you should have the option. Will people abuse the system? Of course... nothing is going to stop that short of shutting the whole thing down.

I agree with most your points except this one. Balance in PvE is not about balancing the "competitiveness" (there is no competition in between humans and AI monsters as AI monsters don't have a goal to win - as you mention yourself) but it is a about "cooperation".

When all PvE groups in any mission outpost, end PvE area etc would isolate all dervishes out because their class is just not worth one spot in the 8 party build then there is an issue. When all PvE groups would require you to run A/E and only A/E to complete an area then there is an issue as well.

When these happen you don't really have a choice as you say, but rather it turns into the same situation you noticed in PvP, for example it used to be that if you wanted to finish UW you'll play perma sin (specific class + specific build) or you won't get any group and you can't hench it either.

Not to mention rank discrimination was a huge issue in PvE (in the times of ursan) which kept many players away from content. Locking content away from players because they chose a "bad" profession for their main toon or because they refuse to grind some title is possibly the worse that can happen for PvE players. No one wants to play an online game to feel left out.

So does PvE need balancing? Yes. Does it have the same nature as PvP balancing? No. PvP is about making sure both teams have equal chances to win while PvE is about making sure every player has equal chances to get a team an play through all the game's content.

Lishy · Mar 01, 2010, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Let's face it. Guild Wars PvP has been flawed and never a focus from the start.

The "high end" PvP - GvG and HA, are like pvp minigames with all their gimmicks instead of the basic killing another team.
And even in killing another team, things like TA were flawed.
Where is my 1v1 arena? PKing?
To top off all the damn annoying inconsistencies you experience with the gameplay, mechanics, and pvp modes, you also have a discriminatory community with insane requirements, making it impossible for anyone new to jump into PvP.

Look, I don't want to criticize, but Guild Wars' PvP is horribly done. It's absolutely horrible. I don't want to offend any of the developers with that, but seriously. It's frustrating, annoying, and broken.
Say I want to have a simple match with a friend, with 4 heroes.
Things are an absolute kick in the ass for something so simple.

Luckily, Guild Wars 2 will be cleaning up this fallen sludge. But I really think that a focus on PvE is for the better, as the Guild Wars PvP should have never been a focus in the first place with these standards.

Of course, that is just my view.

aeronox · Mar 02, 2010, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

Where is my 1v1 arena? PKing?
...
Say I want to have a simple match with a friend, with 4 heroes.

Guild Wars is a co-operative RPG with team-based, "e-sport"-like PvP.

Orry · Mar 02, 2010, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fey

PvP focus shifted for me when the Tombs outpost on the 'pve map' got changed into an instanced pve grind...and HA was created on the substantially less significant 'Battle isles'

This, and I would have rather them left all the arenas as seperate outposts with diverse goals, like it was for a short while before they consolodated them into two 4vs4 arenas(okay, they all boiled down to kill the other guys, but, work with me here).

It made less sense when they said "Okay, we're moving all the PvP outposts to the battle isles, and, OH, we're introducing a few new types of PvP with Factions that are only available if you own that campaign and they're on the world map for Cantha."

DreamWind · Mar 02, 2010, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

Let's face it. Guild Wars PvP has been flawed and never a focus from the start.

Sigh...some people will simply never know the truth even if it hits them in the face.

The-Bigz · Mar 02, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Sigh...some people will simply never know the truth even if it hits them in the face.

You mean that giant 'Skill depends your ability, not mindless grind' type on the back of the prophecy box? It tricked me into thinking Guild Wars was about PvP too. Even the PvP only character part as well, that also tricked me.

/sarcasm.

Cuilan · Mar 02, 2010, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

"Balancing" PvE makes absolutely no sense to me because you have options. If you prefer balanced (the way the game is meant to be played) then go for it. If you want speed, I think you should have the option. Will people abuse the system? Of course... nothing is going to stop that short of shutting the whole thing down.

Lack of balance in PvE becomes a problem when people aren't to enjoy the game. Aka no longer being able to do a quest or area unless they grind through another character of a profession they don't care for with a build they find boring.

DreamWind · Mar 02, 2010, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The-Bigz

You mean that giant 'Skill depends your ability, not mindless grind' type on the back of the prophecy box? It tricked me into thinking Guild Wars was about PvP too. Even the PvP only character part as well, that also tricked me.

/sarcasm.

Meh...if you'd like I'll pull out about 5 articles, the GW official website, and videos of 2-3 Anet employees all saying the game was built from the ground up as a competitive game. But that probably wouldn't be enough for you.

snaek · Mar 02, 2010, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Where is my 1v1 arena? PKing?

pk'ing is not competitive pvp. your point is that gw doesn't have casual pvp modes? ra/fa/jq/ab says hai.

wow has both pk'ing and arena pvp--its arena pvp has way more depth and competitiveness (imo).